CTA Tattler

First of all, as one of the original male commenters, I must object to the your insinuation that this issue is because men are cold-hearted and women are empathetic. You're working with a sample size here of four people. Are you really prepared to draw such a conclusion from that pool of opinions?

Secondly, I totally stand behind my comments. Of course it's sad that someone would want to kill himself/herself. Of course a death is more important than we commuters having a long ride home. To imply otherwise in my comments is to knock down a straw man.

The real issue here is why a person would commit suicide this way. This woman tried to kill herself at the Wellington stop at the very beginning of rush hour at a stop that would snarl traffic for the Red, Brown, and Purple lines. I took the train home a little before 6:00 that night and things were stilled messed up. Obviously this had a huge effect on everyone's commute.

Now why do it this way? Why commit suicide in the most attention-grabbing fashion possible? At the worst spot for the CTA? At the worst time? What is the motivation? If these troubled folks want simply to end their pain, why do it in a fashion that messes up everyone's elses lives too? Get a gun and shoot yourself. Overdose on drugs. Hell, jump off a building. All of those scenarios would be better.

Here's the central point: If you care so little about your life that you want to throw it away, why would you choose a means of throwing it away that maximized the attention you gained and the affect on others' lives? Ultimately, there is an element of selfishness in these suicide attempts.

I believe folks have a right to die. I believe it's the most fundamental right a person can possess--the right to one's life, and therefore the right to end it. But why take one's life in such a selfish way?

Bring on the flames.

Um...
Did you read any of the posts regarding this attempted suicide?

If you actually had, you might have gotten a better understanding as to why people jump in front of trains and don't OD.

Is suicide selfish?

You obviously have never felt the emptiness and desperation that accompany depression. These feelings can decieve you and make you think things will never get better. And there are a lot of mentally ill people out there without recourse to much-needed assistance.

Can someone who is not in total control of their mental capacities be called selfish because they want to end the soul shuddering anguish that accompanies mental illness? According to you, they can.

I don't think this woman wanted to out in a "blaze of glory", I think she was merely looking to ameliorate a gnawing and unrelenting internal pain. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, and my heart goes out to this woman and her family- if she has one.

I think to insinuate this woman was loking for some sort of immortality through her actions is insulting and cold-hearted-to say the very least.

Bring on the flames indeed...

"Is suicide selfish?"

Ultimately, it's extraorindarily selfish, because it greatly harms one's friends and family. And to do it by jumping in front of an L train extends the harm to a wider circle of people.

That's not to say the person isn't deserving of empathy. That's not to say it isn't a horrible tragedy. But is suicide above criticism? I don't think so.

This particular lady had prepared her day to be lived out to the end. At least thats what it looked like to me. Laying with her on the tracks was a tote bag with personal things, including a book for reading. I don't think this was something she had been planning to do at all, nor do I think she was aware of anything around her at the time except her, the train, and meeting death. I seriously doubt she considered even a little how this would affect anyone else but her. There was a doctor on the scene that said she had a psychiatrist right around the corner. Makes perfectly good sense to me, the right place at the wrong time.

Tom, of course I realize that a four-person sample size does not make for a very accurate conclusion. It's all for the sake of discussion.

"I seriously doubt she considered even a little how this would affect anyone else but her."
Assuming that is true, then the "selfish" question has been answered. And if that's the case, why should I extend anything but a fleeting thought for someone who obviously doesn't want to reciprocate. Sure, I'd help her out if the opportunity presented itself (i.e. pushing her out of the way of the train) but I don't think being pissed that many thousands of people were greatly inconvenienced is outrageous at all. What if there was a heart transplant patient waiting on the train? Or what if the cramped quarters and long wait helped to incubate some mutant strain of encephalitis. Or worse yet, what if I can't let my dog out and he urinates all over the floor creating an invisible piss-slick that causes me to fall backwards down my stairs, killing *me* in the process?! If that happened I'd be sure to give Ms. Suicide a piece of my mind in Hell.

"Can someone who is not in total control of their mental capacities be called selfish because they want to end the soul shuddering anguish that accompanies mental illness?"
Nice wording EA Poe. Short answer: Yes. If the person is wracked with pain and complete mental anguish, then he is only helping (ironically?) himself by ending that pain. Maybe if he cared about other people he'd find the will to survive. On the other hand, maybe he's doing the world a favor by comitting suicide. In that case, then it's a very altruistic action. Logically though, the mere existance of the former scenario answers your question. Or was it simply rhetorical? Or did you really mean to ask, "Should it be assumed that suicidal people are selfish?" If that's the case then, no it shouldn't be assumed that it's selfish.

"I think to insinuate this woman was loking for some sort of immortality through her actions is insulting and cold-hearted-to say the very least."
Why are there so many suicide apologists? Give them help and therapy in the hopes that they can become a productive member of society again. But don't make it sound like suicide is some sort of thing *I* need to feel sorry about. It's not. I'm not the one who has the problem and I'm not going walk around everyday marinating in the problems of others (unless they are in my family / social tribe). If I did sit and cry about every person who jumps off a bridge, I'd probably want to commit suicide myself. You can't save everyone, and feeling sorry all the time isn't helping anyone.

Wow, thanks for the comparison, I'm flattered.

Having suffered from post-partum depression, I was merely trying to describe something that is very difficult to put into words. I'm sorry my description didn't meet your stringent standard of prose, but I don't think you needed to be sarcastic about it. Are you feeling better about yourself at my expense now? Good, always glad I can help...

Suicide apologist?
No, I am just trying to edcuate people who don't understand the mind of a person those last moments. I don't endorse suicide in any way. I feel it is imperative for those who need help get it, there is no need for these suicides. But let's face it, mental illness doesn't quite get the same type of support as say, diabetes, socially or otherwise. Lots of insurance plans give shitty psychiatric coverage and fewer and fewer psychiatrists will take on those on SSI, but why I am explaining this to you? It's quite obvious how you feel about this.

I think sometimes people think that having depression or having schizophrenia is some sort of volitional endeavor. They should all pull themselves up their bootstraps. They don't look ill, do they? No, they must be malingering, then, so they can collect that check every month.

I only hope that you never experience any type of mental illness,the pain and the anguish can be intolerable and make you willing to try anything to quell the pain.

But as a "suicide apologist", I'm probably over-dramatizing a bit here, right?

Good for you EA Poe, but this is Chicago, city of a**holes.
This IS the worst city in the world, illiterate, inconsiderate, ill-mannered.
People don't care, nor do they want to, don't try to justify your answer to these other posters EA, it sounded reasonable to me, as I've also known people who died in this manner.
Your late because the CTA had to delay it's trains (the CTA is incompetent in of itself, so this isn't a first)
because of this women who had jumped on the tracks, big f**ing deal.

"Are you feeling better about yourself at my expense now? Good, always glad I can help..."
Yes thanks. I needed an ego fix. (sarcasm)

"...they want to end the soul shuddering anguish that accompanies mental illness?" I wasn't being sarcastic. That's a really morose description. I might have to steal it for later use. (not sarcasm)

"But let's face it, mental illness doesn't quite get the same type of support as say, diabetes, socially or otherwise"
Fair enough. I dont want or feel compelled to become a mental health advocate. I guess if I was going to pick a pet cause it would be closer to home. Obviously this is something important to you, so if you have free time, you ought to go out and raise awareness or lobby congress (if you're not already). Tell me where to send the check. Otherwise, mission accomplished in making a little noise about the issue. (not sarcasm)

"I think sometimes people think that having depression or having schizophrenia is some sort of volitional endeavor. They should all pull themselves up their bootstraps. They don't look ill, do they? No, they must be malingering, then, so they can collect that check every month."
I certainly do not feel that way, and to imply that anything I said supports that thinking is a misinterpretation. When I said, "it's not my problem," I'm pointing out that there are boundaries to one human's empathy. If that's cold, then you have to accept that all humans are cold.

Furthermore, I was being tongue-in-cheek and over literalizing statements to break them down logicially to show why Tom has every right to question the motives of a suicidal person and be peturbed that said person delayed his train ride. This evidently doesn't meet the requisite sorriness/understanding level. It might help you go back and insert, "Though I am very sorry for this tragic event, and really pray that this woman gets help and finds happiness..." before each paragraph. I pretty much figured that statement was implied though.

"but this is Chicago, city of a**holes.
This IS the worst city in the world, illiterate, inconsiderate, ill-mannered..."
I hope you don't call Chicago home?! Sounds like it's your own personal penal colony?

Yes, you got the last paragraph right, this certainly is a city of a**holes. I am afaid I do call this "home", until I can get transferred the hell out of here.
Until then, I must deal with various connards I meet throughout the day.

Obviously you've never been to Philadelphia!!!

Isn't it also selfish to think that everyone, including the suicidal, should be considering YOU and your priorities at all times? hmmm....

Not to sound like a broken record here, but preventsuicidenow.com is an excellent reference for those who are at all interested in the subject. Does it suck to wait on the train for hours because someone jumped? Yes, of course it does. But those who kill themselves are in a darker emotional place than I ever hope to visit...feel blessed if you have your mental health, folks, and don't be so hard on those who aren't as lucky.

Kevin: As more people chime in, and the distribution stays the same (I think), I'm inclined to think you're right: this seems to be a male/female issue.

"Isn't it also selfish to think that everyone, including the suicidal, should be considering YOU and your priorities at all times? hmmm...."

Yes. Just about everything can be distilled into selfishness. Plus it's not my salfishness that in question. I'll tell you right now almost everything I do is 100% selfish.

Caveat...However, if you're a utilitarian and you mean, "YOU" as in the greater collective "YOU," then no it's not selfish at all to expect some consideration for the greater good.

If you think all human action is selfishly motivated then it's the same net effect. Do you drive on the same side of the road as everyone else because you are being considerate or selfish?

1.) you don't want hit an inanimate object while avoiding the oncoming traffic. (selfish)
2.) you don't want to kill anyone else (at best neutral, but probably selfish)
3.) you don't want to go to jail (selfish)
4.) you don't want your insurance to go up (selfish)
5.) you don't want to die! (selfish)

Do you jump in front of a train because you are being considerate or selfish?

Do you post inane responses on the CTA tattler because you're selfish or considerate?

If any answer has the word "want" in it, then it's selfish.

"Good for you EA Poe, but this is Chicago, city of a**holes.
This IS the worst city in the world, illiterate, inconsiderate, ill-mannered."

Geezus. If you hate it so much, then why are you here? Do you aspire to be one of the a**holes? I love Chicago.

Hey RA? You hate it here. We know that. We can't wait for you to go away any more than you. BTW, bringing it up over and over in various comments areas just makes you look like an a**h*le.

No, it's not just a male/female thing. As someone who comes from a long line of depression-prone people, who has had suicide attempts in her family and circle of friends, and who also happens to be female, I must say I find the act, whether done on a cta platform inconveniencing hundreds of people or in the privacy of one's room causing grief to those who could have helped prevent it, incredibly selfish.

Pardon the run-on sentence and apparent heartlessnes.

I have to say, I'm always confused when people describe suicide as "selfish." Of course it is. It's done to oneself - and why on earth is a suicidal person thinking of others? They're thinking of one thing - ending their suffering, otherwise they wouldn't have gone through with it.

All this arguing back and forth--just kidding a little, but I've known someone who died in this manner, and if you don't know anyone who died this way, there is no way you can guess why this is done.
I have a friend who had someone he knew die by starting his car in the garage and suffocating, he was very upset, and said no one saw this coming (no one does a lot of times), he thought it was the coward's way out, I told him you're friend wasn't a coward, and tried to explain to him what this person *might* have been going through.
People are too fast to jump to conclusions, or just don't care.
On another subject to RA, I too don't like Chicago all that much, I'd leave if I had the resources to do so. I don't know if posting on a message board will actually accomplish anything, you just sound angry.

Later all.

On the subject of jumping in front of trains to commit suicide, this form of suicide is fairly common in Japan. Because of this, rail companies actually fine the immediate family of the victim with hopes that the fee would act as a deterrent for those pondering the thought of jumping in front of a train. I lived in Hawaii and worked in the hotel industry for a number of years. Every now and then you would hear of a Japanese tourist(s) jumping from a hotel. The reason being that its cheaper to fly to America and kill yourself rather than jumping in front of a train in Japan. Go figure. I've pasted an interesting article below:

Japanese Families Billed for Relative's Suicide
Aug 18, 2002

TOKYO — Committing suicide carries the ultimate cost — life. But just in case anyone thinks that taking their own lives would be an easy way out, perhaps a little deeper thought is called for. In addition to the grief, heartbreak and emotional burdens that come with suicide, comes a very hefty price tag.

Although [tabloid weekly] Shukan Hoseki (10/1/98) notes a vast majority of Japan's 25,000-plus suicides a year take place in the homes of those that choose to die, a popular method for many people is jumping in front of a train. And because so many commuters are affected, railway companies charge relatives of the victim exorbitant fees.

"Trains don't usually stop too long after a suicide, there's rarely much damage to carriages and we rarely have to send anyone off to catch trains on different lines. In that regard, train suicides probably don't cost too much," says an employee of a commuter line. "But to make sure we can cover the costs incurred when a suicide leads to a derailment, we have to ask the bereaved families of suicide victims to compensate us. The costs are usually in the range of 100 million yen , but I've heard of a case where a family was billed 140 million yen after someone killed themselves by jumping in front of a train."

All stories copyright © Mainichi Shimbun (Tokyo), 2000 - 2002

Wow, interesting article.

Yes, depression and related/subsequent suicide is probably the greatest degree of selfishness there is.

Have you ever heard of anyone that got depressed because they ruined someone else's life? Or someone that killed themselves because they severely inconvenienced another? No. That never happens.

Depression psychologically clouds one perception to world where only they and their sadness exist. As a teenager, I went through a short kick of depression. Honestly, I don't have any sympathetic sayings to excuse it.

It was rather pathetic, actually. Everyone was affected by it. And when they tried to express that to me, I said "you just don't understand what i'm going through." Looking back on it, they pretty much did, and I was an idiot.

Suicide is even worse. You're DESTROYING lives of people around you. Especially fathers and mothers that take their own lives. There is NO excuse for it. And I'm not religious at all.

Thanks, Tom, for having a refreshing, REALISTIC perspective. At least someone has their head screwed on right.